New age therapies cause 'retreat from reason' - Saviors of Saviors of Earth

Quinn, you're welcome :D An...

2009-02-23T13:00:03.643Z

Quinn, you're welcome :D And to end it on "more of that of which there's not enough in this world", here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM1bC3OI_Ls

Enjoy :D

QLoveNLight said:

iDom:

Ahhhh, I rather enjoyed your reply. Your playful stabs at the various points in my reply were rather amusing and I always enjoy a good laugh. So, thank you for that.

Now if I may retort ; P I wish I did have a plausible and probable explanation for all the bigger questions in the universe that science has clearly failed to answer. A little more thinking outside the box for science may actually help them obtain some of those highly sought after answers. And who knows, CERN may actually help them get closer. In the meantime, we'll just have to speculate and theorize - hey, it works for science so why not New Age?

As for your math and statistics - I don't know how simple that is especially when you're talking about lives lost. There's nothing simple about that now is there? Unless of course, you're ruled by ego and since your name isn't Brad Johnson (I hope), I'll consider that a moot point. And yes, the millions of dollars spent on research in the field of medicine has saved plenty of lives and in the same accord, it has killed millions too through failed technologies that, to this day, tend to cause more damage then are helpful (such as radition/chemotherapy) or the many pharmaceuticals that have caused more damage and death than the over-inflated research monies wasted on studies and production of the pharmaceuticals in the first place. Or perhaps we can talk about the millions of dollars the United States spent on the research and development of the atom bomb, which of course only has one purpose, to kill millions of human beings. And if that wasn't enough, we spent even more money to deploy two of these atom bombs and killed hundreds of thousands of human beings once all the dust had finally settled. But hey, it was a great accomplishment for science after all....

At any rate, since my original thoughts on "the audacity to say that billions of dollars (British Pounds) are wasted on homeopathic treatments, pseudo....", I reallly don't see much of a debate regarding how many lives were lost due to the madness of religeon and beliefs - Dawkins wasn't referring to money being wasted on that nor was I in my original thought. I'm sorry if there was confusion there....

Finally, the box of course was meant figuratively as I'm sure you realized - but none-the-less, thank you for the witty sarcasm, God knows there's not enough of that in this world :P

L&L,
~Q

Oooh, this is getting excit...

2009-02-20T04:06:09.567Z

Oooh, this is getting exciting! Thanks so much for continuing this discussion, it's quite enjoyable :)

I'm very much interested in the beliefs you mentioned: 2012 Ascension and Awakening. I'd love you to post links and information that you trust so I can research it myself. So much of the information out there is a bit vague and sometimes conflicting.

I'm sure if there are aliens, they would follow logic, reasoning, and the scientific method. In fact certain mathematicians and scientists have used those methods to show that there is indeed a 5th dimension. I'm sure someone smart like LS will hop in here as he's good with math haha.

I need to look into the left brain and right brain example you have given. From my understanding, I thought that model was outdated. I understand the concept you are trying to infer, but I really do see creativity and other traits one could label as left brained in science. I don't see scientists as staying within the lines as they must use their creative minds to form hypothesis, but become more analytical when designing the experiments and following the correct procedures. In the end it works out pretty well I think :)

Don't worry, I don't see you as being in a box haha. I just think it is a danger in many of the New Age philosophies and something that people that as easily influenced may succumb to. As you know with all religions, one must always balance the line between faith and blind devotion.

Looking forward to your reply :)

QLoveNLight said:

DeusEx:
Thank you for your reply to my post - I always enjoy reading other people's views when they are intellectually based and not a simple flame. Anywho, allow me to reply to your reply ; ) Believing (in the context I was using it) = 2012, Ascension, Awakening, etc. I hope that is narrow enough.

As for not thinking logic, reasoning, and scientific methods is 3rd dimensional - well, you're right - they are also 2nd and 1st dimensional so I stand corrected. ; )

Although me to explain my inside the box theories. First off, yes, science has made leaps and bounds because of a select few who have managed to think outside the box - like Einstein for example. However, without those select few, I don't imagine science would have made such leaps and bounds because scientific processes are too inside the box but then again, they have to be in order to be logical and ultimately, scientifically valid. After all, if you don't follow scientific methods in research, experiments, and study then you may run the risk of being labeled a pseudo-scientist. When I say "inside the box," I am simply describing someone who is typically left-brained in his or her thought processes as opposed to someone who is more right-brained in his/her processes. There is nothing wrong with a logically thinking person, of course, but these individuals have a tendancy to supress their brain's creative processes which, to me, would be an "inside the box" kind of thinker. So, I hope that helps clear up what I mean by "inside the box."

As for me, I am both logical and creative. I follow logic in certain things that I do whereas with other things, I follow a more creative approach. In my opinion, this makes me a more outside the box kind of thinker or, if you prefer, a more center brain thinker.

So overall, I should perhaps clarify that not all science is "inside the box" as this would not allow for the advances that science has undergone over the many centuries it has existed. But, it is in my opinion that many scientists are incapable of being "outside the box" simply because they have supressed their left brains and are only able to stay "within the lines" - if you don't mind the coloring analogy.

Finally, I agree with your comment about so New Age thinkers put themselves inside a box, but only to a certain extent. I would have to say that only SOME of the New Age thinkers out there put themselve inside a box. And for those individuals, I would have to say that they are the crazy religeous fanatics, whether it's New Age or not, which is really incidental. And yes, separation of individuals from the collective would most definitely be bad for us as an evolving species - that's not only logical but New Age at the same time if you have had a chance to research both viewpoints on the matter. As for shunning reasoning - I do not and would not so I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. But reasoning wouldn't, of course, be the sole reason why the species has gotten to where it is today. Reasoning alone couldn't do such a thing because ego would never allow it.

DeusEx said:
Hi Quinn,

First of all, thank you for your well thought out response. First I would ask you define what you mean by believing so I can narrow down my thoughts a bit more. I do not think using logic, reasoning, and scientific methods is "third dimensional" thinking or allowing oneself to be placed into a box. Do you consider scientists at the cutting edge to be placed in a box?

Scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, etc... all understand the need to speculate and theorize. We are all the same in that regard are we not? However, they chose to remain focused on logic, reasoning, and scientific methods whereas New Age thinkers stay within the realm of speculation.

I understand the need for homeopathy, etc and there are multitudes of studies that show evidence that some work. One such example is acupuncture. There are numerous universities that are willing to put these alternative medicines to the test. Why not have validation?

My original comment to this post was actually showing you how New Age thinkers are actually placing themselves in a box. You may want to believe otherwise but the example I provided should be enough. Separation of the individual from the community or society is quite a danger to the existence of homo sapiens.

Reasoning is not a bad thing. Why shun it when it has brought the species to where it has been today?

iDom: Ahhhh, I rather enjo...

2009-02-20T03:54:06.299Z

iDom:

Ahhhh, I rather enjoyed your reply. Your playful stabs at the various points in my reply were rather amusing and I always enjoy a good laugh. So, thank you for that.

Now if I may retort ; P I wish I did have a plausible and probable explanation for all the bigger questions in the universe that science has clearly failed to answer. A little more thinking outside the box for science may actually help them obtain some of those highly sought after answers. And who knows, CERN may actually help them get closer. In the meantime, we'll just have to speculate and theorize - hey, it works for science so why not New Age?

As for your math and statistics - I don't know how simple that is especially when you're talking about lives lost. There's nothing simple about that now is there? Unless of course, you're ruled by ego and since your name isn't Brad Johnson (I hope), I'll consider that a moot point. And yes, the millions of dollars spent on research in the field of medicine has saved plenty of lives and in the same accord, it has killed millions too through failed technologies that, to this day, tend to cause more damage then are helpful (such as radition/chemotherapy) or the many pharmaceuticals that have caused more damage and death than the over-inflated research monies wasted on studies and production of the pharmaceuticals in the first place. Or perhaps we can talk about the millions of dollars the United States spent on the research and development of the atom bomb, which of course only has one purpose, to kill millions of human beings. And if that wasn't enough, we spent even more money to deploy two of these atom bombs and killed hundreds of thousands of human beings once all the dust had finally settled. But hey, it was a great accomplishment for science after all....

At any rate, since my original thoughts on "the audacity to say that billions of dollars (British Pounds) are wasted on homeopathic treatments, pseudo....", I reallly don't see much of a debate regarding how many lives were lost due to the madness of religeon and beliefs - Dawkins wasn't referring to money being wasted on that nor was I in my original thought. I'm sorry if there was confusion there....

Finally, the box of course was meant figuratively as I'm sure you realized - but none-the-less, thank you for the witty sarcasm, God knows there's not enough of that in this world :P

L&L,
~Q

iDom said:

Thanx for your input, QLove. Who said there was anything wrong with healthy debate? :)
Science never pretended — unlike religions and various cults/beliefs — to have ALL the answers. That's why they keep searching.
So, from your saying, should I understand you (not directly, of course) have a plausible, probable explanation for those "bigger questions in this universe"? I'm always happy to learn. :P

This said, what you call audacity is simple math/statistics. As far as how much money is spent on research, at least science (in the matter medicine) has saved more lives than "alternative" medicine. Comparatively, how many lives were sacrificed, crushed, destroyed by the madness of religions and belief..?

But then, there's still millions of people (an average 5 each season) having a nice pilgrimage in Holy places. miracles do happen they say and they are REAL! Very true: Billions of pilgrims in Lourdes, 80 cases classified as "miracles". Baffling! Let's take a ride there, crippled and sick. :)

Now we will even — as of next week — be able to cure cancer and Parkinson's disease only by meditating, scrupulously following the guidance of a high-evolved teacher. Isn't that cool? I totally bow and Dawkins can go on Holidays in Greece!

I'm not sure what you meant by "is having an open-mind such a terrible thing or should we be bound by the limitations of scientific law?". Obviously your response shows the greatest of open-mindedness and I shall try to take it as a model. ;)

And there's the "outside the box" thing… Hmm… What box? There is no box? I suggest you also read my posts on BSB thread here, I think you'll love it, it goes more along the no box line. :P

DeusEx: Thank you for your...

2009-02-20T03:26:36.815Z

DeusEx:

Thank you for your reply to my post - I always enjoy reading other people's views when they are intellectually based and not a simple flame. Anywho, allow me to reply to your reply ; )

Believing (in the context I was using it) = 2012, Ascension, Awakening, etc. I hope that is narrow enough.

As for not thinking logic, reasoning, and scientific methods is 3rd dimensional - well, you're right - they are also 2nd and 1st dimensional so I stand corrected. ; )

Although me to explain my inside the box theories. First off, yes, science has made leaps and bounds because of a select few who have managed to think outside the box - like Einstein for example. However, without those select few, I don't imagine science would have made such leaps and bounds because scientific processes are too inside the box but then again, they have to be in order to be logical and ultimately, scientifically valid. After all, if you don't follow scientific methods in research, experiments, and study then you may run the risk of being labeled a pseudo-scientist. When I say "inside the box," I am simply describing someone who is typically left-brained in his or her thought processes as opposed to someone who is more right-brained in his/her processes. There is nothing wrong with a logically thinking person, of course, but these individuals have a tendancy to supress their brain's creative processes which, to me, would be an "inside the box" kind of thinker. So, I hope that helps clear up what I mean by "inside the box."

As for me, I am both logical and creative. I follow logic in certain things that I do whereas with other things, I follow a more creative approach. In my opinion, this makes me a more outside the box kind of thinker or, if you prefer, a more center brain thinker.

So overall, I should perhaps clarify that not all science is "inside the box" as this would not allow for the advances that science has undergone over the many centuries it has existed. But, it is in my opinion that many scientists are incapable of being "outside the box" simply because they have supressed their left brains and are only able to stay "within the lines" - if you don't mind the coloring analogy.

Finally, I agree with your comment about so New Age thinkers put themselves inside a box, but only to a certain extent. I would have to say that only SOME of the New Age thinkers out there put themselve inside a box. And for those individuals, I would have to say that they are the crazy religeous fanatics, whether it's New Age or not, which is really incidental. And yes, separation of individuals from the collective would most definitely be bad for us as an evolving species - that's not only logical but New Age at the same time if you have had a chance to research both viewpoints on the matter. As for shunning reasoning - I do not and would not so I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. But reasoning wouldn't, of course, be the sole reason why the species has gotten to where it is today. Reasoning alone couldn't do such a thing because ego would never allow it.

DeusEx said:

Hi Quinn,

First of all, thank you for your well thought out response. First I would ask you define what you mean by believing so I can narrow down my thoughts a bit more. I do not think using logic, reasoning, and scientific methods is "third dimensional" thinking or allowing oneself to be placed into a box. Do you consider scientists at the cutting edge to be placed in a box?

Scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, etc... all understand the need to speculate and theorize. We are all the same in that regard are we not? However, they chose to remain focused on logic, reasoning, and scientific methods whereas New Age thinkers stay within the realm of speculation.

I understand the need for homeopathy, etc and there are multitudes of studies that show evidence that some work. One such example is acupuncture. There are numerous universities that are willing to put these alternative medicines to the test. Why not have validation?

My original comment to this post was actually showing you how New Age thinkers are actually placing themselves in a box. You may want to believe otherwise but the example I provided should be enough. Separation of the individual from the community or society is quite a danger to the existence of homo sapiens.

Reasoning is not a bad thing. Why shun it when it has brought the species to where it has been today?

Same here, it will be very ...

2009-02-19T20:15:32.390Z

Same here, it will be very excited times. Too bad we'll ascend before then LOL!

Simone said:

Ha ha ha, well Catholic church sending entourage to inspect itself? If the Catholic church was so good at that, there would have been a lot less abuses. But yeah, sometimes they do that, like in the case of apparitions. Fr. Jerry was also the appointed 'exorcist' for San Diego. And he was the one that they called to go investigate a Marian Apparition in San Diego. Yes, a lot of it is mental. Yeah, I think most of it can be /could be (if we took the time to study it) explained by science and what was once thought of as 'miraculous' will some day be seen as 'normal'. I think Fr. Jerry did wonderful work and helped a lot of people, but it is definitely not the 'full picture'. When we get the scientists, religious, buddhists, psychics and psychologists together in the same room to really study exactly what is going on, then we'll be getting somewhere. We are just now beginning to understand the brain... I'm really excited to find out what they will discover in the next 10-20 years.

DeusEx said:
Can`t wait to see that study. I've done meditation and it is indeed relaxing. I agree with you that helping reduce stress and anxiety will help the body heal itself. Human stress response is responsible for many maladies. As you said, it is most likely that Father Jerry is helping people emotionally and mentally which provides the additional health benefits. It is nice that he acknowledges it as such. Considering the fact that he is Catholic, I am sure ths Vatican would have sent an entourage to inspect any claims otherwise :)

These sort of things I would love to study and believe they provide benefits. On the other hand, we have some of the so called miracle cures that are being sold based on pseudo-science or new age wisdom. This is most likely what Dawkins objects to. I really need to pick up a copy of this book :P

Simone said:
Yeah, I really don't know, I think for Fr. Jerry, he would have readily admitted that he could not scientifically 'prove' that he had any special abilities. He always attributed everything to God/Jesus. I guess a skeptic would consider that a 'cop out'. But he was a very busy guy, so it wasn't like he was hiding himself. He did a lot of counseling and he did the bible study and conferences, mostly in San Diego and Los Angeles. Those kinds of things are difficult to set up criteria on which to do a test. He focused more on healing of emotional issues and since the mind affects the body, you end up becoming a healthier person in general. A lot of it is just based on 'forgiveness'. I think that has a lot of truth to it, that once you are more forgiving of others, you heal a lot of pent up emotions and resentment that can have an internal affect on the body like stress. It is definitely proven that stress affects your health. So maybe they could just do a test on stress reduction or something. Other than that I really don't know how you would 'test' something like that since it is all so subjective. I agree with what you said about most of the New Age stuff being too focused on 'self'. There was an interesting study done on some Buddhist Monks by scientists on the benefits of meditation. I find it and I will post it as a separate blog entry and you can take a look at it.

DeusEx said:
Haha, I'm not going to slam you for being Catholic. That's something I would expect from SOE members or the lame Atheists that need to prove themselves.

It is exactly the problem I have with all these so called healers. They only tend to their flock and never give a moment to take part in a study. If they felt they had such a gift, they would help advance scientific study. What if we were able to determine what parts of the mind were affected? Is this not a bit selfish to keep it to themselves and their own?

Simone said:
You askin' me? The first one that I mentioned being slain in the spirit by unfortunately I don't remember his name. The only other 'faith healer' that I experienced was Fr. Jerry Bevilaqua in San Diego. He's a 'Charismatic' Augustinian priest. (that was when I was practicing Catholic). He's the kind of guy that would probably not go somewhere to 'prove himself'. Most of what he did was much like 'group therapy' / bible study and he was trained in psychology and had the 'gift of tongues'. I had a lot of interesting experiences in that group to say the least. Don't know if any of it is anything that anyone could prove... a lot of his healing was just based on helping to heal the psyche... (heal the mind and you heal the body type thing). He helped me a lot. Okay, now nobody judge me for having been Catholic... I left the church cuz I could no longer tolerate the abuses.

DeusEx said:
I would like to reiterate that there are many studies that show the positive effects of some of these therapies. I, myself, have had positive results from chiropractic treatment, massage, and acupuncture. If you know a good faith healer that doesn't mind getting a study performed on him/her, send them my way. They have nothing to lose, right?

LS… What would I do without...

2009-02-19T18:29:08.262Z

LS… What would I do without you? — sucks thumb and smiles at papa LS.

LeavingSOE said:

@Dom

Categorized under "Truth Versus Perception". If you think this is not the right category, please recommend a category for this.

Thanks,
LSOE

@Dom Categorized under "Tr...

2009-02-19T08:11:38.469Z

@Dom

Categorized under "Truth Versus Perception". If you think this is not the right category, please recommend a category for this.

Thanks,
LSOE

Can`t wait to see that stud...

2009-02-19T07:30:17.894Z

Can`t wait to see that study. I've done meditation and it is indeed relaxing. I agree with you that helping reduce stress and anxiety will help the body heal itself. Human stress response is responsible for many maladies. As you said, it is most likely that Father Jerry is helping people emotionally and mentally which provides the additional health benefits. It is nice that he acknowledges it as such. Considering the fact that he is Catholic, I am sure ths Vatican would have sent an entourage to inspect any claims otherwise :)

These sort of things I would love to study and believe they provide benefits. On the other hand, we have some of the so called miracle cures that are being sold based on pseudo-science or new age wisdom. This is most likely what Dawkins objects to. I really need to pick up a copy of this book :P

Simone said:

Yeah, I really don't know, I think for Fr. Jerry, he would have readily admitted that he could not scientifically 'prove' that he had any special abilities. He always attributed everything to God/Jesus. I guess a skeptic would consider that a 'cop out'. But he was a very busy guy, so it wasn't like he was hiding himself. He did a lot of counseling and he did the bible study and conferences, mostly in San Diego and Los Angeles. Those kinds of things are difficult to set up criteria on which to do a test. He focused more on healing of emotional issues and since the mind affects the body, you end up becoming a healthier person in general. A lot of it is just based on 'forgiveness'. I think that has a lot of truth to it, that once you are more forgiving of others, you heal a lot of pent up emotions and resentment that can have an internal affect on the body like stress. It is definitely proven that stress affects your health. So maybe they could just do a test on stress reduction or something. Other than that I really don't know how you would 'test' something like that since it is all so subjective. I agree with what you said about most of the New Age stuff being too focused on 'self'. There was an interesting study done on some Buddhist Monks by scientists on the benefits of meditation. I find it and I will post it as a separate blog entry and you can take a look at it.

DeusEx said:
Haha, I'm not going to slam you for being Catholic. That's something I would expect from SOE members or the lame Atheists that need to prove themselves.

It is exactly the problem I have with all these so called healers. They only tend to their flock and never give a moment to take part in a study. If they felt they had such a gift, they would help advance scientific study. What if we were able to determine what parts of the mind were affected? Is this not a bit selfish to keep it to themselves and their own?

Simone said:
You askin' me? The first one that I mentioned being slain in the spirit by unfortunately I don't remember his name. The only other 'faith healer' that I experienced was Fr. Jerry Bevilaqua in San Diego. He's a 'Charismatic' Augustinian priest. (that was when I was practicing Catholic). He's the kind of guy that would probably not go somewhere to 'prove himself'. Most of what he did was much like 'group therapy' / bible study and he was trained in psychology and had the 'gift of tongues'. I had a lot of interesting experiences in that group to say the least. Don't know if any of it is anything that anyone could prove... a lot of his healing was just based on helping to heal the psyche... (heal the mind and you heal the body type thing). He helped me a lot. Okay, now nobody judge me for having been Catholic... I left the church cuz I could no longer tolerate the abuses.

DeusEx said:
I would like to reiterate that there are many studies that show the positive effects of some of these therapies. I, myself, have had positive results from chiropractic treatment, massage, and acupuncture. If you know a good faith healer that doesn't mind getting a study performed on him/her, send them my way. They have nothing to lose, right?

Haha, I'm not going to slam...

2009-02-19T06:41:46.424Z

Haha, I'm not going to slam you for being Catholic. That's something I would expect from SOE members or the lame Atheists that need to prove themselves.

It is exactly the problem I have with all these so called healers. They only tend to their flock and never give a moment to take part in a study. If they felt they had such a gift, they would help advance scientific study. What if we were able to determine what parts of the mind were affected? Is this not a bit selfish to keep it to themselves and their own?

Simone said:

You askin' me? The first one that I mentioned being slain in the spirit by unfortunately I don't remember his name. The only other 'faith healer' that I experienced was Fr. Jerry Bevilaqua in San Diego. He's a 'Charismatic' Augustinian priest. (that was when I was practicing Catholic). He's the kind of guy that would probably not go somewhere to 'prove himself'. Most of what he did was much like 'group therapy' / bible study and he was trained in psychology and had the 'gift of tongues'. I had a lot of interesting experiences in that group to say the least. Don't know if any of it is anything that anyone could prove... a lot of his healing was just based on helping to heal the psyche... (heal the mind and you heal the body type thing). He helped me a lot. Okay, now nobody judge me for having been Catholic... I left the church cuz I could no longer tolerate the abuses.

DeusEx said:
I would like to reiterate that there are many studies that show the positive effects of some of these therapies. I, myself, have had positive results from chiropractic treatment, massage, and acupuncture. If you know a good faith healer that doesn't mind getting a study performed on him/her, send them my way. They have nothing to lose, right?

I would like to reiterate t...

2009-02-19T06:05:48.221Z

I would like to reiterate that there are many studies that show the positive effects of some of these therapies. I, myself, have had positive results from chiropractic treatment, massage, and acupuncture. If you know a good faith healer that doesn't mind getting a study performed on him/her, send them my way. They have nothing to lose, right?